Joe Rogan Experience #2453 - Evan Hafer

Joe Rogan Experience number 2453: Evan Hafer. Duration: approximately 2 hours 54 minutes. Evan Hafer is a Special Forces veteran, former CIA operator, and the founder of Black Rifle Coffee Company. This is a sprawling, deeply entertaining conversation that pinballs between archery obsession, coffee science, serial killers, martial arts philosophy, military courage, the Epstein files, and the importance of finding something hard to do that cleans your mind. It is quintessential Rogan: a long conversation between two friends who share a genuine love for hunting, combat sports, and the pursuit of excellence, with some genuinely profound moments buried inside hours of banter.

Section 1. Archery Obsession and the Never-Ending Equipment Nerd Conversation

The episode opens with Rogan and Hafer geeking out over their archery setups in classic obsessive detail. Rogan shows off various gifts on his desk, including a WD40 flamethrower from Ed Calderon and mammoth bone pieces from John Reeves. They quickly dive into bow grip preferences. Hafer has been using Rattler Grips made from bone on his Hoy bow, noting the bone feels more tactile than plastic. Rogan wraps his grips with camouflage athletic tape for tackiness, though some archers argue your hand should be so relaxed it can slip around the grip to prevent torque.

Rogan reveals he shoots his eighty-four pound bow every day, with a new ninety pound bow on the way. His backyard range goes to eighty-five yards, and he brings a rangefinder when house shopping, dead serious. He has been doing this for six or seven years, checking that any potential property has at least fifty yards of shooting distance before buying.

Hafer describes the "hinge roulette" drill where he reaches into a dump bag and has to shoot whichever release he grabs. He has been exclusively using the Wise Guy release since their last hunt together, noting it took a while to stop hammering the trigger. Both men agree that archery skill degrades one hundred percent if you take time off. Even three weeks away makes the bow feel like a foreign object. Hafer had tendinitis in his left elbow and took a month off after hunting season, coming back to find his accuracy destroyed.

The conversation turns philosophical. Rogan says the years where he shoots consistently all year are always his best hunting years. You cannot just pick up a bow a month before hunting season. Cam Haynes is invoked as the gold standard of never taking a day off, someone who takes pleasure in the pain itself. Rogan describes vacationing with Haynes in Lanai, where they bow hunted at least once a day among the island's thirty thousand deer and three thousand people.

Section 2. The Four Waves of Coffee and Why Starbucks Tastes Like Garbage

Hafer, as founder of Black Rifle Coffee, gives a masterclass on coffee that is both entertaining and genuinely educational. He breaks down the four waves of coffee. First wave is commodity coffee like Folgers and Maxwell House, around for a hundred years, typically containing Robusta, darker roasted. Second wave is experiential, like Starbucks, emphasizing atmosphere over quality. Third wave is artisan, microlot, single origin coffees. Fourth wave is the cutting edge, where techniques from wine and beer like anaerobic processing create wildly different flavor profiles.

He busts several coffee myths. Coffee is not a bean but a fruit. It is a cherry, and you roast the pit. Darker roasting does not mean more caffeine. It is the opposite because the two genetic strains, Robusta and Arabica, differ in caffeine content, and overroasting actually allows you to create a consistent profile from inconsistent inputs, which is exactly what Starbucks does. That is why their black coffee tastes so terrible. They know most customers are going to dump cream and sugar in it, so they overroast for consistency rather than quality.

Rogan tries a cup of black Starbucks coffee and calls it not drinkable, while Hafer explains that fourth wave single origin coffees are meant to be enjoyed without anything added. He makes an hilarious observation about barista culture: the craziest looking person in a coffee shop will make you the best espresso. "How many nose rings do you have? How many colors in your hair? How many pronouns? Because that's going to be the greatest espresso you've ever had." Meanwhile, a jacked guy with hand tattoos is going to make you cowboy coffee from a tin pot. The entire third and fourth wave coffee movement originated from San Francisco and Seattle, which is why it took on the identity politics of those cities.

Section 3. Serial Killers in Austin, Ladybird Lake Bodies, and the Pacific Northwest Connection

The conversation takes a dark and fascinating turn when Rogan brings up the bodies found in Ladybird Lake in Austin. The data is staggering: at least thirty-eight bodies found in or around the lake, with the downtown area near Rainy Street accounting for a concentrated cluster. Police insist these are alcohol-related accidental drownings, noting that many victims are young adult men from the nightlife area, with autopsies showing high blood alcohol levels. But Rogan is skeptical, pointing out that many of the victims are gay men from the gay bar area near Rainy Street, and that dosing with GHB is apparently common.

They pull up statistics on serial killers: twenty-five to fifty active in the US at any given time, down from an estimated three hundred in the 1970s and 1980s, likely because modern surveillance and forensic technology makes it much harder to avoid detection. Rogan tells the story of Bryan Kohberger, the PhD criminology student who stabbed four University of Idaho students at least one hundred and fifty times total. He was literally studying how serial killers operate, raising the question of whether he committed earlier unsolved murders in the Pacific Northwest.

Hafer connects this to a theory from author Caroline Frasier, who appeared on the podcast previously, about industrial pollution in the Pacific Northwest. Coal plants, smelting operations, and mining released enormous amounts of toxins including lead and arsenic into the atmosphere and soil, potentially contributing to psychological disorders and increased violence in the region. Rogan considers this plausible given how long the contamination persisted.

Section 4. The Pursuit of Mastery, Pool as Meditation, and Why Everyone Needs Something Hard

This is one of the most compelling stretches of the episode. Rogan reveals that pool is his number one problem, the activity he would pursue full-time if he quit everything else. He describes the complexity: hitting a ball with a stick into another ball with pinpoint accuracy into a pocket that is four and a quarter inches wide, often from seven or eight feet away, while calculating the throw caused by English, the spin imparted on the cue ball, and then predicting where the cue ball needs to travel one, two, three rails for perfect position on the next shot.

He rates himself around seven hundred to seven hundred and fifty on the Fargo rating scale, where one thousand means you never miss and top professionals are in the eight hundred plus range. He played with world-class players when they visited and estimates the gap is mainly time. They spend eight hours a day. If he did that, he believes he could play professionally, though he could never beat the absolute best who have been doing it for decades. Professional pool has gotten more lucrative thanks to Matchroom, with top players making half a million dollars plus annually between tournament winnings and endorsements.

Rogan then delivers what might be the most quotable passage of the episode. He argues that everyone needs something difficult to master that cleans their mind. Whether it is archery, pool, jiu-jitsu, or pistol shooting, the key is that it requires total focus, leaving no room for anxiety, bills, social media, or life stress. "At that moment, there is nothing else in your head. Nothing." He describes the burst of happiness when an arrow drops exactly where you want it, and how at the end of practice his mind works better and feels clearer. Fred Bear's quote about nothing clearing a man's mind like shooting a bow comes up as gospel truth.

He says the world would have far more happy people if everyone found a thing that was hard to do and committed to incremental improvement. Instead, people are running around all messed up, drowning in anxiety from social media, unsatisfying lives, and sedentary habits, ending up on Lexapro when what they really need is something demanding that improves their human potential. His pitch for jiu-jitsu: the stresses of life are nothing compared to a dude literally trying to break your arm. Jiu-jitsu people are some of the most relaxed people he has ever been around.

Section 5. Courage, the USS Parche, and Stories Nobody Tells

Hafer shares that he is making a documentary about Earl Plumley, a Medal of Honor recipient and former Green Beret who is one of the most humble humans Hafer has ever met. Plumley says the medal belongs to the guys. "Any of the guys, if they hadn't been shot, would have done the same exact thing that I did." The documentary follows his path through the eyes of his peers and leaders, exploring how the thousands of small choices throughout his professional life built a man capable of extraordinary courage.

Hafer then tells the remarkable story of the USS Parche, the most decorated submarine and ship in Navy history with nine presidential citations, whose missions are still entirely classified. During the Cold War, the nuclear submarine was modified and tasked by the CIA to land on the ocean floor at hundreds of feet, send out divers in pitch-black freezing water, and attach listening devices to Soviet military communication lines that ran under bays. None of these men have ever spoken publicly about what they did. No podcasts, no books. They simply say they did a lot of incredible stuff and still cannot talk about it.

Rogan is stunned by the silence. Hafer points out that this is decades of missions, months away from home, and not a single leak. He contrasts this with the James O'Keefe videos catching intelligence community members bragging about classified work on dates, particularly chatty people trying to impress someone they just met. The real elite operators are the ones nobody ever hears about.

Section 6. From Taekwondo to Comedy, Brain Damage, and Finding Your Thing

Rogan tells his martial arts origin story in vivid detail. He walked past a gym in Boston at age fourteen or fifteen and heard a sound he had never heard before: wump kaching, wump kaching, the heavy bag flying through the air as national champion John Lee, training for the World Games, destroyed it with spinning back kicks. "I want to know how to do that," was all Rogan could think.

His school under Jay Hun Kim, who trained with General Choy Hong Hi, the founder of Taekwondo, was fanatically focused on power and perfect technique. While other schools didn't even have heavy bags, his school emphasized that every technique should be capable of devastating force. When their team showed up at tournaments, people would whisper nervously because these fighters weren't trying to score points. They were trying to break bodies.

Rogan describes the fear hierarchy that changed his career. He started fighting before he was old enough to really be scared, but at nineteen he knocked out a competitor so badly the guy was on a stretcher for half an hour and had to be hospitalized. That started a cascade of thoughts about brain damage. He began training at boxing gyms and saw fighters who had the slurry speech, the repeated stories, the early signs of CTE. He would lie in bed with headaches after sparring and think about where this path led. When he tore his ACL at twenty-one or twenty-two, the universe essentially forced the decision.

His first open mic night at twenty-one terrified him more than any fight. But comedy offered what martial arts couldn't anymore: a challenge with unlimited depth, dependent on personality and connection rather than physical survival. When bombing, he would consider going back to fighting. "Bombing on stage is like sucking a thousand dicks in front of your mother," he says, but the goal is always to give the audience a good time because these people work all day and deserve it.

Section 7. CIA Life, Ron White, and Building the Austin Comedy Scene

Hafer casually reveals that he worked for the CIA for years, unable to tell anyone what he did. When he finally told his now-wife, she rolled her eyes and said "I know, what are you, an idiot?" because his friends all looked like NFL Hell's Angels rather than State Department diplomats. He describes DC parties where intelligence community members would jockey over whose agency was more prestigious, while he told everyone he was a janitor at Northrop Grumman just to be left alone.

Rogan credits comedian Ron White as the single biggest reason he moved to Austin. White had moved there in 2018, and when Rogan visited in May 2020, just months into the pandemic lockdowns, he decided to leave LA permanently. "Even if I never do standup again, at least Ron will be there." White was the one who convinced him to open a comedy club, grabbing him by the shoulders after an electric set at the Vulcan and saying "Whatever we have to do, we're going to keep doing this."

Now there are seven comedy clubs on or near Rogan's street in Austin, all paying performers real money. Young comics can work multiple rooms in a single night, earning actual income without having to do road gigs just to pay rent. Rogan sees this as a golden era for comedy development, where performers can stay in town, build material, and then go out on the road when they are ready.

Section 8. Epstein, Les Wexner, and Whitney Webb Being Right About Everything

The final stretch of the episode dives into the latest Epstein file revelations. Congressmen Rosendale and Massie had just released names that had been redacted from the files, including Les Wexner, the former CEO and owner of Victoria's Secret, now named as a co-conspirator alongside Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. Rogan points out that Wexner gifted Epstein the infamous Manhattan townhouse, the one with the painting of Bill Clinton in a dress in the foyer. The key question: why was Wexner's name redacted when he is not a victim?

Rogan pulls up a 2020 tweet from investigative journalist Whitney Webb calling Wexner a child sex trafficker. "That crazy chick is right about everything," he says. They discuss a case involving a woman allegedly held in Wexner's compound in New Albany, Ohio, the largest house in the state, for about two weeks. Hafer notes that Wexner's involvement is not brand new information to people who have been following this closely, but the official unredacting confirms what was previously speculation.

They debate whether Epstein is really dead, noting AI-generated or possibly real photos claiming to show him alive, and whether he would need surgery given how recognizable his face has become. The conversation reflects a broader theme of the episode: the gap between what powerful people do in secret and what the public is allowed to know about.

Section 9. Parenting by Example, Cam Haynes's Savage Kids, and the Problem with Softness

The conversation returns to what Rogan considers one of the most important topics: how to raise kids who are mentally tough without being cruel. He uses Cam Haynes as the prime example. Haynes was admittedly rough raising his kids, but the results speak for themselves: one son became an Army Ranger, the other broke the world chin-up record, and Haynes himself runs marathons in jeans. The key was not lectures or forced hardship but simply being in the presence of a supremely disciplined father. His kids saw how people respected their dad and wanted that respect for themselves.

Rogan argues that the only way to earn respect is to be worthy of it, and that is a long road with no shortcuts and no immediate satisfaction beyond knowing you are on the right path. He observes that a huge percentage of the American population is dangerously soft because there are too few physical challenges in modern life. "If the world went nuclear and we lost everything, every country could invade America if we ran out of bullets. Once we run out of bullets, every country can mess us up."

Hafer connects this to the concept of courage, which he says he has spent a huge percentage of the last several years thinking about. He references a conversation with Jack Carr at the airport about how exceptional people serve as fuel for everyone around them. When you become one of those exceptional people, you enhance the lives of people in your circle, who then enhance yours, creating a positive feedback loop. He says the question of how to build courageous people is the most fascinating subject he knows.

Both men agree that children learn primarily by example. If you are a parent who makes excuses, sleeps in, gets fired regularly, and avoids difficult things, you create an environment where your child imitates that weakness. But if your kids see you doing hard things every day, they internalize that standard. Rogan's advice for parents: find something difficult yourself and commit to it visibly, because your children are watching everything.

Section 10. The Jock Tax, UFC at the White House, and Combat Sports as the Ultimate Entertainment

Near the end, the conversation touches on the California "jock tax" that apparently cost some Philadelphia Eagles players money for playing in the Super Bowl. Based on the seven days they spent in California, a percentage of their annual salary was taxed, resulting in one player allegedly paying two hundred and forty-nine thousand dollars in tax on one hundred and seventy-eight thousand dollars of Super Bowl earnings, a net loss for playing in the championship game. Rogan ran the numbers through AI the night before and confirmed it.

Neither Rogan nor Hafer watched the Super Bowl. Rogan says he cannot go from combat sports to regular sports anymore. The previous Saturday's UFC card at the Apex Center was spectacular, with Mario Batista's performance standing out as potentially world-champion caliber. Rogan describes the moment when the referee says "let's go" as the most exciting thing in all of sports, and he does not think that will ever change. The dedication required for months of training to get to that single moment, where the consequences are so grave, makes everything else feel pale by comparison.

They discuss the upcoming UFC event planned for the White House in June, which Rogan notes will require serious security given the combination of high-profile attendees and the current political climate. He is not entirely convinced it will happen given everything going on in the world between now and then.

Section 11. Fake Martial Artists, Brain Damage Recognition, and the Boston Comedy Scene

Rogan tells a wild story about a man named Raphael Tori, which was a fake name, who pretended to be a Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt and was even teaching classes in the early 2000s. Eddie Bravo trained with him and immediately recognized the man was terrible. The fraud was eventually confronted, but the story took a darker turn: he was having an affair with another man's wife, lured the husband back to his karate school, and murdered him. He is currently in prison. Rogan points to the MC Dojo Life Instagram page that documents fake martial artists, including people who claim to have a "death touch" where they can make students fall over by touching their forehead, with their students apparently brainwashed into going along with the charade.

He then paints a vivid picture of the Boston comedy scene in the late 1990s, where his goal alongside friend Greg Fitzsimmons, who started within a week of him, was simply to make a living doing comedy. They would drive ninety minutes to Rhode Island to do five minutes for free. The comics who were already established in Boston were "coke snorting, whiskey drinking psychopaths," many of them big football player types who lived a life that seemed enviably free: all you had to do was tell jokes. Nobody in Boston talked about having a career in entertainment. They just wanted to be good comics. The idea that you might leave Boston and become famous was barely considered except for outliers like Steven Wright and Jay Leno.

Key Takeaways

Archery and pool both serve as mental clearing exercises that require such total focus that all life stress disappears, and both men argue that everyone needs at least one activity like this for mental health.

Professional pool has become significantly more lucrative through Matchroom promotions, with top players earning half a million dollars or more annually through tournaments and endorsements.

The USS Parche is the most decorated vessel in US Navy history with nine presidential citations, but its missions remain entirely classified, and none of its crew have ever spoken publicly about their work.

Coffee has four distinct waves, from commodity to experiential to artisan to anaerobic processing, and Starbucks deliberately overroasts for consistency knowing most customers will mask the taste with cream and sugar.

At least thirty-eight bodies have been found in or around Ladybird Lake in Austin, concentrated near the Rainy Street nightlife area, with police attributing them to accidental drownings despite the unusual volume.

The Epstein file revelations have officially named Les Wexner as a co-conspirator, confirming what investigative journalists like Whitney Webb were reporting years earlier. His name had been improperly redacted from the files since he was not a victim.

Rogan quit competitive martial arts at twenty-one after witnessing severe brain damage in training partners and hospitalizing an opponent with a knockout, pivoting to comedy despite finding his first open mic more terrifying than any fight.